thoughtfulThings I had already thought of:
* Domestic violence. It is never good, and it is not entertaining. Watching supposed heroes verbally and physically smack each other around for two hours is not my idea of fun. Seriously, 2/3 of my supervillains behave better than this.
* Results of untreated trauma. Obviously if people survive terrible, traumatic events and get no support then the outcomes are likely to be poor. Statistically speaking the chance and severity of PTSD increase with each deployment. So if you overwork your superheroes, eventually they burn out and go apeshit. Duh.
* It is not okay to treat veterans like kleenex. Too many people keep focusing on "what Bucky did." Except that he never chose to do any of that. He was a prisoner of war for decades, tortured, brainwashed, and abused in every way imaginable. He is not morally responsible for deeds he did not choose and could not stop; nor is he mentally sound enough to stand trial even if he had chosen to do heinous things. He needs health care, not another gunfight. The way people treat him in the movie is plausible, but it is not ethical.
* Do you have a better solution, you whining idiots? Do you actually think that unopposed supervillains would do LESS damage? No, you just want to bitch that the people saving your ass made a mess while doing it. Granted, collateral damage is a bad thing, but the Avengers seem inclined to do their best to minimize it -- for example, containing the Battle of New York to specific streets, trying to stop the Sokovia disaster before the city got high enough to act like a fucking comet strike, and levitating a bomb away from a densely populated street. In all cases the casualties would have been much higher without intervention. You can't always save everyone, so you save as many as you can. That's something every first responder has to deal with.
New thoughts:
* The authority of government derives from the consent of the governed. Forcing people under your jurisdiction is a very popular method, but it is not okay, nor is it safe. They tend to rebel on you, and then you get wars. Therefore pressuring the Avengers to submit is a bad idea because it violates this principle. This is especially obvious because it is a multinational group, not America dealing with its own citizens.
* People have a right to representation in their government. The problem here is that a bunch of ordinary people seek to control superheroes out of fear. This is not about a culture deciding collectively on how to behave. It's about one group of people trying to force another group of people to obey. That rarely goes well either. Especially if the group you're trying to oppress has more power than you do.
* As first responders, the Avengers should take note of who wants their help and who does not. If they violate national boundaries without invitation, that's not okay. An argument could be made that they have a right to do so in case of a global threat (for example, the Battle of New York) but otherwise they should take no for an answer. This would show that they are moral heroes. "You want to handle the supervillain and his raging herd of dinosaurs by yourselves? Okay, let us know how that works out for you. We're always interested in hearing about new tactics that are effective on the battlefield." It should quickly become clear whether or not superheroes are necessary for handling super-scale problems, or if they are convenient but ordinary methods would suffice. It's not like there's a shortage of hugeass problems in the world; surely some people would love to get help with theirs. Not to mention that Bruce Banner would much rather go back to delivering medical care in Kolkata than jump around in purple underwear punching supervillains.
May 31 2016, 08:47:22 UTC 5 years ago
I just found some youtube trailers for a new movie entitled "Free State of Jones" which is based on a real but very little-known event that happened in Mississippi during the Civil War.
(Little known except in Mississippi that is. I grew up hearing tidbits about it from some of my elderly neighbors.)
:^}
Yes...
June 2 2016, 03:32:48 UTC 5 years ago
History is only boring if taught by morons. Actual history is full of the most hilarious, unbelievable shenanigans that no editor would ever accept as fiction.
Re: Yes...
5 years ago
Re: Yes...
5 years ago
May 31 2016, 13:01:21 UTC 5 years ago
At this point in the timeline, Tony is being played.
My first thought right after the movie is that Tony doesn't deserve Cap's loyalty. But that's not what it's about.
He could tell anyone in the world "we're still out here for you, you know how to find us"... some people would turn them in (and get His Catness' kingdom flattened into the bargain); some would simply ignore it as being either Against The Rules (fnord, fnord) or other reasons... but Tony? Tony will keep that secret, and then when the shit hits the fan, Tony will break his precious rules in order to not look like a total disaster on the world's stage.
And Cap will teach Tony a lesson.
Furthermore, he could've told Natasha... he knows she'd do the right thing. But Tony will make it *look good*.
May 31 2016, 13:58:31 UTC 5 years ago
He couldn't have arranged that better if he'd planned it.. oh, wait... maybe he did. After all, he knows Steve pretty well, he's a master manipulator of people [when he wants to, which isn't often]. And he knows how to use a situation to his advantage.
Granted, he exploited the opportunity, not created it, but he definitely played Steve towards the end.
Thoughts
June 1 2016, 05:22:40 UTC 5 years ago
Likely so.
>>Think about it, he's now functionally got a 'stealth' Avengers team, one that can do stuff not sanctioned by the accords and be disavowed. One that isn't likely to go off the rails because it's lead by Captain Moral Compass. One that's backed by a wealthy, hi-tech non-signatory nation who's leader has a personal reason for keeping them safe.<<
True. I sincerely doubt that anyone else has thought about how seriously Wakanda could kick everyone's ass if provoked. It's a good thing they're peaceable.
>>He couldn't have arranged that better if he'd planned it.. oh, wait... maybe he did. After all, he knows Steve pretty well, he's a master manipulator of people [when he wants to, which isn't often]. And he knows how to use a situation to his advantage. <<
0_o
>>Granted, he exploited the opportunity, not created it, but he definitely played Steve towards the end.<<
Aside from the part where they were all trying to kill each other.
Re: Thoughts
5 years ago
Thoughts
June 1 2016, 06:15:06 UTC 5 years ago
At this point in the timeline, Tony is being played. <<
Possibly so.
>>My first thought right after the movie is that Tony doesn't deserve Cap's loyalty. But that's not what it's about. <<
True as far as it goes, though.
>>He could tell anyone in the world "we're still out here for you, you know how to find us"... <<
Honestly, that's what the Avengers should have done. "Okay folks, everyone who would like to be able to call superheroes to deal with their supervillains, natural disaster, etc. give us your contact info. Everyone who wants on the no-call list, here it is. Kthxbai."
I estimate it would take an average of 1 unmitigated supervillain attack per nation for them to reconsider. Especially after the Brotherhood of Evil Mutants went on a world tour of the anti-superhero nations chanting "PAR-TAY! PAR-TAY! PAR-TAY!" while Sabertooth drank beer straight out of the barrel.
>>some people would turn them in (and get His Catness' kingdom flattened into the bargain); some would simply ignore it as being either Against The Rules (fnord, fnord) or other reasons... but Tony? Tony will keep that secret, and then when the shit hits the fan, Tony will break his precious rules in order to not look like a total disaster on the world's stage. <<
Yyyyyyeah.
>>And Cap will teach Tony a lesson.
Furthermore, he could've told Natasha... he knows she'd do the right thing. But Tony will make it *look good*.<<
Mmm, possibly.
May 31 2016, 13:51:15 UTC 5 years ago
That there, is creating a whole new class of discrimination. What they have done is create a piece of legislation that singles out a specific sub-group of humans and treats them differently from everyone else, with no distinction or recourse to appeal. On a global or at least multi-national scale.
Functionally, it also seems to treat anyone who refuses to obey and be registered as an automatic threat, no jury trial or appeal, just hunt them down and at best lock them up...
That is not ethical in anyway shape or form...
May 31 2016, 15:22:40 UTC 5 years ago
May 31 2016, 19:15:05 UTC 5 years ago
Thank you!
5 years ago
5 years ago
Yes...
5 years ago
5 years ago
Well...
5 years ago
Well...
June 1 2016, 06:10:21 UTC 5 years ago
Nor did anyone propose any better method of handling super-scale issues. Imagine the skyrocketing death toll if other first responders had to go through politics before they could take a call.
Now I'm all too happy to let people go hang themselves if that's what they want, but I draw the line when they're trying to destroy the planet I am stuck standing on. You want to destroy your own little corner? What the fuck ever. You want to put the entire biosphere at risk? I'm not cool with that.
Thoughts
June 1 2016, 05:53:12 UTC 5 years ago
They barely touched on that in the movie, focusing primarily on the Avengers ... but yeah, making a law just to control a specific little group of people? That never ends well.
>> That there, is creating a whole new class of discrimination. What they have done is create a piece of legislation that singles out a specific sub-group of humans and treats them differently from everyone else, with no distinction or recourse to appeal. On a global or at least multi-national scale. <<
Which is basically why Magneto argues they need a territory of their own. He is right.
*looks at Israel*
Well, it's worth a try, at least.
I'm really sad that all the Marvel versions are tainted or destroyed or turn out to be traps. It is frustrating for me as a reader and a sociologist, but as a member of assorted minorities, it's downright threatening. The message is, you can't have a place of your own, but you don't belong in our places and we will abuse you there whenever we feel like it.
A great big fuck no to that.
This is one reason why I'm developing the Republic of the Maldives in Terramagne. They have a logical reason to court people with superpowers -- to keep the country from going under due to global warming -- and in return, they can offer citizenship, living space, and representation.
So far the other countries haven't noticed that they are hemorrhaging talent, and that the Maldives has already soaked up enough to become a superpower-nation. By the time anyone else notices, it will be too late to stop, although I suspect that will inspire some major gains in soup-friendly laws throughout the top-ten countries.
>>Functionally, it also seems to treat anyone who refuses to obey and be registered as an automatic threat, no jury trial or appeal, just hunt them down and at best lock them up...<<
Yeah, that's disturbing. I don't think it's meant for legal responsibility at all. I think it's just the usual "They're different, they're scary, we don't like them, let's kill them."
>>That is not ethical in anyway shape or form...<<
Agreed.
May 31 2016, 14:46:19 UTC 5 years ago
Yes, please!
May 31 2016, 18:14:53 UTC 5 years ago
http://ysabetwordsmith.livejournal.com/3998357.html
Re: Yes, please!
5 years ago
Haven't watch it yet,
June 2 2016, 02:49:15 UTC 5 years ago
Just wanted to pitch in that, according to some video I saw, the comics treated the issues differently, and more deeply; maybe the same problems were there, I haven't read them myself and they were looking at the differences between film and comics rather than the implications as role models for humanity.
Hopefully I'll update after I watch the movies, but I find that in general I listen to self-help audiobooks more than watch movies because the common theme of "might makes right" really bothers me. It suggests that we never know what is ethical, only who happened to be victorious in a fight.
In real life, might and ethics are often misaligned.
Re: Haven't watch it yet,
June 2 2016, 05:50:23 UTC 5 years ago
Up to you.
>> Just wanted to pitch in that, according to some video I saw, the comics treated the issues differently, and more deeply; maybe the same problems were there, I haven't read them myself and they were looking at the differences between film and comics rather than the implications as role models for humanity. <<
Often true, they are different yet somewhat overlapping.
>>Hopefully I'll update after I watch the movies, but I find that in general I listen to self-help audiobooks more than watch movies because the common theme of "might makes right" really bothers me. It suggests that we never know what is ethical, only who happened to be victorious in a fight.<<
I agree that is a problem. Might doesn't make right, just possible. Then again, I am partial to history books written by the losers. I also prefer ethics with a higher moral and practical standard than who has the bigger stick. O_O This is one reason why so little mainstream entertainment appeals to me. I find it more satisfying to write my own where I can show heroes being actually heroic and not assholes.
>>In real life, might and ethics are often misaligned.<<
Sadly so.