Trouble is, marriage and genetics are no longer reliable indicators for that. We've drifted too far away for that to work anymore. There are all kinds of family ties now, and most of them aren't legally recognized. This causes problems for everyone. It's a nuisance to schools when the people most influential in a child's life are not two bioparents. It's a nuisance to bankers and real estate agents when "unrelated" people want to buy property together. It's a nuisance to health care workers when the relevant people are locked out legal rights while the blood relatives and patient may hold each other in mutual despite.
What we need is a way for people to connect themselves officially as a social unit that does not focus on sexual activity or genetics, but has a similar level of legal union, to be administered with a similar level of processing as required for marriage. It would solve many of the problems faced by same-sex couples but also many other relationships which are close and permanent. And we wouldn't have to keep arguing over whether total strangers are fucking or not, which frankly is nobody else's business anyhow. The public's right to know only applies to practical functions -- and we've been ignoring those in favor of harping about moral disagreements.
July 29 2012, 02:24:48 UTC 8 years ago
Oughtn't "marriage" be a religious rite, of no more legal significance -- and no less -- than a christening or a bat mitzvah?
Oughtn't legal contracts between whatever number of people, of whatever gender, for whatever purpose, be established and regulated under contract law?
Why is it any business of the government what consensual activities between parties to such a contract do -- or do not -- take place behind closed doors?
Certainly, we would need to untangle health insurance and pensions, but those reforms already are long overdue. And eliminating the word "marriage" from personal contract law might help to defuse the debate. Yes, I know, while launching a whole 'mother firestorm -- but no-one would be denying worshippers the right to wed in the manner and venue of their choice -- if the church or temple or whatever will have them.
(‡Yes, I was a very serious child, who took. --and takes -- "separation of church and state" very seriously.)
Yes...
July 30 2012, 06:05:00 UTC 8 years ago
The first serious debate I can remember was a funeral when I was was 2 or 3. It was a ridiculously conservative church where only the men could partake of communion (actually, I haven't run into that in another Christian church, but some of them have really flaky customs). I thought that was not just unfair to the women, but incomplete and unbalanced. My mother wound up carrying me outside so we could finish the discussion without bothering anyone else.
July 29 2012, 02:43:28 UTC 8 years ago
*bow, flourish*
July 30 2012, 06:06:20 UTC 8 years ago
Much of it comes from having studied different cultures and the dozens of different sexual arrangements and legal contracts people have devised. There is just way too much left uncovered in America today, and it's making a mess.
July 29 2012, 03:55:59 UTC 8 years ago
July 29 2012, 04:30:38 UTC 8 years ago
But if a government is going to be in the "marriage" business -- as I think it should *not* -- then marriages should be available to competent adults of all genders, faiths, philosophies, races, sexual orientations, ages, ethnicities, hair colours, fandoms, & cetera. Likewise for "civil partnerships" -- one rite for all, and all for one; one contract mis-fits all.
(The legal part? is a contract. The relationship part? is none of the government's business.)
8 years ago
Hmm...
8 years ago
Yes...
8 years ago
8 years ago
Yes...
8 years ago
July 29 2012, 04:56:38 UTC 8 years ago
Yes...
July 30 2012, 06:08:44 UTC 8 years ago
By their fruits you shall know them.
Re: Yes...
8 years ago
Re: Yes...
8 years ago
July 29 2012, 06:04:36 UTC 8 years ago
Yes, please!
July 30 2012, 06:09:00 UTC 8 years ago
July 29 2012, 17:24:57 UTC 8 years ago
July 30 2012, 06:39:36 UTC 8 years ago
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Origin_of_the_Family,_Private_Property_and_the_State
Engels is, in my opinion, a more readable writer than Marx. And his analysis is, I think, accurate. Further, if his analysis is correct, then it is not surprising that the change we see in capital translates into a change of family structure as well.
In short, I think you're correct. I especially appreciated your observation:
It's a nuisance to schools when the people most influential in a child's life are not two bioparents. It's a nuisance to bankers and real estate agents when "unrelated" people want to buy property together. It's a nuisance to health care workers when the relevant people are locked out legal rights while the blood relatives and patient may hold each other in mutual despite.
Another random thought for your consideration. In the 1980s when Canada was looking at 'gay marriage' issues, a Toronto lawyer (who was also, incidentally, a lesbian) noted that she thought that gay people were nuts to want to saddle themselves with 1000 years of common law restrictions that come with the term 'marriage'. In her view, homosexual partners had the opportunity to define, legally, their relationships in a way that would allow them to avoid the complications that have accrued to heterosexual marriages. And they passed it up in favour of perceived legitimacy.
Thoughts...?
Thoughts
July 30 2012, 06:44:54 UTC 8 years ago
Ideally, yes, designing a new customized structure would be of more practical benefit and get away from the cruft.
Practically, there are hundreds of rights that are only offered to "married couples." Trying to fight for each one of those individually would be a nightmare, and doing without them can be life-wrecking. It is simpler, although not necessarily better, to use what is already available.
Consider that black people campaigned successfully for the right to enter establishments that cater to white people, but it doesn't mean they give a fuck about meeting the needs of those new customers or even have a clue about how to do it. And there's not always a black hair salon or restaurant or whatever available. Some places are truly multicultural; some just fake it so they don't get sued. And some don't even bother to fake it.
July 30 2012, 12:38:25 UTC 8 years ago
This leads to all sorts of problems and, I think, accounts for the reluctance of many religious types to extend marriage to homosexual or other unconventional groups. They see it as being forced to perform a religious sacrament on groups not in line with the religion.
Now, in my opinion, if you think your God requires you to be a brain-dead hate-filled ignorant bigot, knock yourself out. We all create God in our own image, after all. You shouldn't be able to force your religious dogma on everyone else, though. That's what the First Amendment's ban on establishing a State Religion is meant to prevent.
The can of worms I really don't want to open is that it seems to me that church weddings, as religious ceremonies with binding legal status, are unconstitutional. In an ideal world the solution might be to do what the French did, and separate the legal part of marriage from the religious part. You should go to the City Hall and enter your civil union for all the inheritance, guardianship, benefits, and joint property issues, with whomever you want to be able to look after your affairs with you, or for you if you are incapacitated. Then go celebrate a church wedding before whichever God will have you with whomever you want to do the bumpabump with, or not, as everyone involved sees fit. The two really should have nothing to do with each other.
That's my crackpot opinion anyway.
Thoughts
July 30 2012, 18:30:26 UTC 8 years ago
Yes, precisely. A further problem is that certain sects are privileged over others. Mainstream Christianity currently defines marriage as a privilege to be enjoyed only by one man and one woman, and has enough leverage for the government to apply that to people who are not of that faith. It doesn't matter if your religion believes that two men can marry, or two women and one man, or anything else; your faith is less important than someone else's faith. That's obviously unconstitutional in America, but it's an application of might makes right.
>> In an ideal world the solution might be to do what the French did, and separate the legal part of marriage from the religious part. <<
That would be my preference, yes. But I expect it wouldn't go over just because the majority religions want special rights and will fight like hell to maintain that. If you're asking for rights that someone else already has, that's asking for equal rights not special rights. If you're trying to deny someone else the rights that you already enjoy, that's asking for special rights.
July 31 2012, 17:02:22 UTC 8 years ago