- What do you think a social contract is for?
- What are some social contracts that apply to groups you inhabit? What are some points the contracts cover? What don't they cover?
- What are some things you consider essential for a social contract to ensure or forbid?
- Have you ever participated in negotiating a social contract? If so, how well did that work out?
- Have you ever observed misunderstandings because of an incomplete social contract, or because people disagreed over what the social contract entailed? If so, what happened (omitting details that might cause harm)?
The Social Contract
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April 29 2008, 02:23:33 UTC 13 years ago
In my group, punishment for breaching the contract too seriously is banishment.
Thoughts
April 29 2008, 02:34:26 UTC 13 years ago
Re: Thoughts
April 29 2008, 03:08:05 UTC 13 years ago
Re: Thoughts
13 years ago
Re: Thoughts
April 29 2008, 18:21:11 UTC 13 years ago
In a nutshell
1 - Another group moderator and one of the group members have a long standing virulent hatred of each other, which they mainly kept off the list. Good for them.
2 - Said member has a problem with authority, considers any list rule enforcement to be fascism and censorship, and becomes overtly aggressive when challenged even slightly.
3 - Moderator who hates him has a tad more subtlety so he used a throw away comment made by member to antagonize him into becomeing overtly aggressive, then claimed innocence.
4 - Said member predictably started ranting and raving, and thus the list owner banned him.
5 - Victory to moderator, who continues to maintain his own innocent victim stance after he manipulated the situation to achieve his own ends.
Me, I stayed out of it. After that huge war I got into with that Richard fellow (remember him?) I was not in any position to judge either of them for their behavior once they took it off the list. I told the moderator later than I have no moral high ground to stand on for judging anyone. No one is perfect.
April 29 2008, 18:13:22 UTC 13 years ago
:-)
May 3 2008, 21:41:34 UTC 13 years ago
Sorry it took so long for me to get back to you.
April 29 2008, 16:37:27 UTC 13 years ago
So that everyone is on the same page regarding social norms, expectations and generally on the same page about what is rude and what is polite.
# What are some social contracts that apply to groups you inhabit? What are some points the contracts cover? What don't they cover?
One of my biggest peeves about communities I'm part of is a lack of written social contracts. This works great if it's a small, intimate group, but not so well (particularly on the Internet) when you start getting large and attracting members that may not have the same cultural norms as you do.
I always, when outlining rules, make a few major points: you treat the people with respect. It doesn't matter if you disagree with the issue, have a critique, or whatever - you never make the criticism personal or I'll come down like a ton of bricks. And, everything has a place. Most of my organizations are forum-based, so this is easy: the criticisms go here. The rants go there. The official announcements are over here. People can enjoy what they like and avoid what they don't.
# What are some things you consider essential for a social contract to ensure or forbid?
See above about getting personal.
# Have you ever participated in negotiating a social contract? If so, how well did that work out?
If by negotiate, you mean Laid Down the Law. :P I do solicit input on wording as I go, usually from a small group of co-conspirators. In groups where I'm not the In Charge person, I frequently chafe at the fact that these things aren't put in writing and have to bite my tongue not to try to prod them into being. Sometimes it works out for them. Sometimes it doesn't.
# Have you ever observed misunderstandings because of an incomplete social contract, or because people disagreed over what the social contract entailed? If so, what happened (omitting details that might cause harm)?
Have I ever. Feelings get hurt on all sides because people get told they've done things wrong *after* the fact, then feel excluded and embarrassed when rules are made that point out their slip, people take sides, etc. and downhill from there.
April 29 2008, 23:15:13 UTC 13 years ago
I've run into people who want to have others earn their respect before they give it, and they have problem after problem after problem in their lives. It's not a functional way to do anything (even though I have great sympathy for the reasons that certain people have given me for feeling that not all humans deserve respect).
Even the most dysfunctional people I've met behave better toward people who treat them with respect. Therefore, I conclude that treating people without respect is an inherent way to ask for trouble.
Thoughts
April 30 2008, 03:04:09 UTC 13 years ago
Courtesy is owed.
Respect is earned.
Love is given.
I don't like people who demand respect; it tends to make me lose respect for them. I also don't like people who demand courtesy from others while acting obnoxious themselves. So I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt, and approach with a neutral to potentially positive bearing, in the absence of direct information about whether or not they are worthy of respect. Once information is forthcoming, I adapt accordingly. People who do things worthy of respect get it. People who at least don't distinguish themselves negatively can coast on that. People who act in a manner unworthy of respect don't get it -- and should not get it, else it becomes meaningless.
The question of how one's own behavior reflects on oneself is infinitely more complex, with different answers for different personalities and contexts.
Re: Thoughts
April 30 2008, 15:07:08 UTC 13 years ago
But very few people argue when I point out that everyone is equally sacred, and even when we make mistakes, we deserve respect. Sometimes I have to rephrase to fit a particular person's comfortable terminology, but the central point, that we Pagans are all people trying to follow a sacred path, and that as such we are all deserving of respect even though we all make mis-steps, does seem to be a universal belief--or as close to universal as any of our other, more-often cited, beliefs.
Also, the "angry" part is important here. To explain why, I have to digress a little.
My sister and I talked last night about Obama’s long-time pastor, about how, during the first part of the sermon people are so upset about, he repeatedly preached that it is wrong to condemn or show prejudice toward a whole people for the actions of a few of them, even if those few are their leaders. And then, he said what has been repeatedly quoted, which is clearly contrary to both Christian teachings (love your neighbor, etc.) and to what he had just been preaching. My sister maintained that she observed in the Bill Moyers interview that the preacher is an intelligent man. I asked, how could an intelligent man not see that contradiction? Her answer was, “because he was angry, so angry that it caused a disconnect in his ability to think about this issue”.
Very often, Pagans are angry. Like the Reverend, that anger has its roots in how they were treated when they were too young and/or powerless to be able to protect themselves. And I see a great similarity in being angry because of deep-seated pain from being marginalized and put down because one perceives the Sacred differently and the deep-seated pain from being marginalized and put down because one’s skin is different. I think this kind of blinding anger is the protective scab on a soul-wound that has not healed.
Too often, this soul-deep anger leads people to misbehave, to act badly, sometimes even in contradiction to what they believe—-in short, to exhibit behaviors that are definitely NOT worthy of respect. And yet, to treat them with active disrespect at this moment, when they are acting out of and blinded by their anger and pain, resonates so strongly with the original hurt and anger, that it usually pushes them further into the hurt and anger that caused the misbehaviors, because they are not acting logically, because there is a disconnect in their thinking due to all that hurt and anger (and under it, fear of being hurt again).
Certainly, one should not honor bad behavior, but “dis”-ing the person does nothing to break into the predictable cycle of disrespect leading to hurt, leading to anger, leading to acting out, leading to more disrespect, and so on without end.
Sometimes people can reach a satori themselves, that allows them to express their anger in some more healthy way. More often, they cannot break out of this destructive and painful cycle without some guidance, help, or insight from someone else. And with that kind of soul-wound, they literally cannot hear anyone who is being disrespectful. At least, not in any way that is helpful to them or anyone else.
It is, admittedly, a very hard thing to do, to show respect for a person while condemning their behavior. But I think it is necessary to try.
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Re: Etymology , subtle distinctions, & shifts in mindspace
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Re: Thoughts
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Thank you...
April 30 2008, 17:08:49 UTC 13 years ago
>>One of my biggest peeves about communities I'm part of is a lack of written social contracts. This works great if it's a small, intimate group, but not so well (particularly on the Internet) when you start getting large and attracting members that may not have the same cultural norms as you do.<<
I think the Pagan community would benefit if more people had the necessary skills for writing out social contracts. It's hard though. My coven has a compact, and revising it is just a nightmare. Sometimes the process lurches to a stop and we have to let it sit there until someone comes up with a whole new idea. *ponder* Some of our best points have come that way, though.
>>If by negotiate, you mean Laid Down the Law. <<
Ideally, several or all of the people involved will contribute to the process, rather than one person mandating what the social contract will be. I don't think I have enough data, yet, to determine whether a mandated contract is better than none at all. Evidence points both ways.
April 29 2008, 23:09:13 UTC 13 years ago
A significant part of what happened seems to me to have been the group considering the married couple as "one member" rather than as two separate members. I don't think this would have happened if "Ann" and "Betty", known to be best friends, had been collaborating on a story, but I can't be sure.
Because of things like this, I don't know if you CAN have a complete social contract, that could eliminate all misunderstandings. People's expectations are built up in such a multidimensional way.
Also, people don't always understand the same thing from the same words. If you agree on ground rules--and even write them down--that's great. Unless, of course, in practice, it becomes clear that the people involved understood those rules very differently. Then, sometimes, there's not much you can do to fix things up after the fact.
Mind you, I'm not saying you shouldn't try to agree to start with, just that there's only so much an agreement can cover.
So, maybe some kind of conflict resolution method would be a good thing to include?
Good point!
April 30 2008, 02:58:44 UTC 13 years ago
May 4 2008, 10:44:20 UTC 13 years ago
Thoughts
May 4 2008, 15:16:18 UTC 13 years ago
For me, a question almost always elicits a direct answer. It's part of my nature as a Bard. If I'm in a situation where I don't feel safe, I can put that function out of reach; and there are a few topics I don't care to discuss; but for the most part, an honest answer is automatic. And yes, plenty of people aren't comfortable with that. I try to be around ones who are.
One thing I've learned is the usefulness of mixing praise with criticism. It comes from all the editing work I've done. People do a better job of fixing what's wrong if you can also point out some things they did right.