ysabetwordsmith) wrote, ysabetwordsmith 
busy 
pagan. Would you like to have weekly discussions of Pagan leadership topics here?
Sadly the main program is dormant, but the YardMap concept is awesome, and many of its informative articles remain. YardMap was a citizen science…
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Sadly the main program is dormant, but the YardMap concept is awesome, and many of its informative articles remain. YardMap was a citizen science…
Here is my card for the Winterfest in July Bingo fest. It runs from July 1-30. Celebrate all the holidays and traditions of winter! ( See all my…
Apparently all kinds of things go on inside goldenrod galls, beyond the caterpillars who make them. Fascinating. I've seen the galls but haven't…
April 16 2008, 01:12:26 UTC 13 years ago
...wow. Just... wow. O_O
April 16 2008, 01:51:52 UTC 13 years ago
That is typical of what happens whenever anyone suggests that leadership or organization might be of some use to the (any) Pagan community; and/or that close consideration of leadership theory and techniques might improve the quality of experiences to be had in Pagan groups. I hadn't expected to get such a fine textbook example with my very first installment, but it's a useful confirmation. If you're trying to discuss leadership with Pagans and nobody squawks, you're not doing it right because they didn't understand.
At the point where the issue was raised about me thinking I could teach leadership (which I hadn't actually claimed in the column, nevermind my 4 Grey School classes on the topic; I'm more interested in getting people to think things through on their own) I was seriously tempted to reply ...
"Well, I doubt I could teach you."
Because if one isn't receptive to the concept of leadership (or any other concept, for that matter) to begin with, neither teacher nor text nor any amount of life experience is likely to alter that.
That's a pity, really, because the Pagan community has such great potential. We just tend to limit ourselves from using it. I understand people's inclination to be distrustful of "leadership" because we've all seen some examples that reek of EPIC FAIL. Thing is, if your car belches black smoke and rolls to the side of the road, you don't just abandon it. Someone has to haul up the hood and get their hands dirty with a wrench to figure out what's wrong and fix it.
I think it'll be interesting to see what happens when we haul up the hood of Pagan leadership and take a look.
And the mockers? *chuckle* I've been in the Pagan community for over 20 years now. It's not like I've never heard 'em before.
April 16 2008, 02:14:49 UTC 13 years ago
13 years ago
13 years ago
13 years ago
April 16 2008, 04:45:52 UTC 13 years ago
what really ticks me off is people who think that because THEY don't want to be a part of a "community" then NO community is allowed, ever. As if THEY define what is Pagan or not-Pagan. Pagan Community doesn't mean All Pagans Everywhere. There are frequently -- as you tried to point out -- sub groups that get together and want to be Pagan together, and those groups DO need someone to coordinate.
I'm surprised some people deign to be in that....oh wait what is it?? LJ COMMUNITY. durrrr!
April 16 2008, 02:17:56 UTC 13 years ago
April 16 2008, 02:51:13 UTC 13 years ago
Deleted comment
Re: *applause*
April 16 2008, 03:47:20 UTC 13 years ago
I'm not directly part of the East Coast activities. However, I know some of the people involved, particularly PagaNet. I'm betting this is one of several projects spawned by the 2001 Pagan Summit, a gathering of many Pagan leaders in Indiana. I attended that one, and we talked about a lot of issues -- many of them common across multiple groups. It was fascinating. It's also where I got the title for my column: we went around and around on the "herding cats" topic. (Oberon Zell-Ravenheart has also said that "Leading Pagans may be like herding cats, but getting money out of them is like trying to milk geese!") I'm glad to see more organization along these lines.
If you have any luck pursuing these things in Australia, I'd love to hear about it. My Australian connections are through a different line -- we've got a lot of Aussie students in the Grey School of Wizardry. I also teach the Leadership Course at the Grey School, which we use to prepare our student leaders for their service as Prefects and Captains. Most of them are very enthusiastic about how that service helps them learn and grow.
April 16 2008, 04:31:45 UTC 13 years ago
It was icky.
So I would love to read discussions of these topics HERE. bc that place makes my skin crawl.
and then Imade the mistake..
April 16 2008, 04:40:34 UTC 13 years ago
your first commenter is indicative of exactly why I left there. MASSIVE KUDOS to you for your replies, which were reasonable and deftly delivered.
me, I would come across that sort of attitude, and no matter how I tried to be reasonable, my underlying feeling, ie "OMG HOW STUPID IS YOU????", would seep in to it all and then I would pull my hair out and decide I really wanted to go back to being a Christian just because.
i mean seriously, if you are completely socially inept and want to learn paganism by reading Teh Intarnets by yourself, fine, but people in general DO want rituals and conventions and places to go to learn and books and articles to read and those DO have to be organized by someone. Someone has to do the work of it. Who will? Not that dude for sure. And what does "leader" mean? Not that they are The Boss Of You and Do What I Say Dammit. No, they are the ones who step up to the plate and who coordinate.
omgawds how DARE you have the momumental ego to think you have a right to actually write a column on topics related to these ideas.... who the heck do you think you are??? *rolls eyes*
Re: and then Imade the mistake..
April 16 2008, 04:44:41 UTC 13 years ago
You know how people are always saying, "Someone ought to do something about that!" ...?
Well, I'm "Someone."
Re: and then Imade the mistake..
April 16 2008, 04:50:50 UTC 13 years ago
Re: and then Imade the mistake..
April 16 2008, 11:09:11 UTC 13 years ago
>if you are completely socially inept and want to learn paganism by reading Teh Intarnets by yourself, fine
I'm not sure if you think this describes me or not, so on the off chance you do -- let me correct you. I am involved with a group offline. A group that follows my specific pagan path. We indeed involve ourselves in rituals together. My point in my original responses is this: the leaders of my group are not pagan leaders. They are, simply, leaders of my group. I maintain that it is impossible to have Pagan Leaders, because paganism is an umbrella term. I'm sorry that you find this difference in opinion so personally offensive.
>Someone has to do the work of it. Who will? Not that dude for sure.
I assume this is directly aimed at me. I would venture to say that you have no idea what work I have done, so I'd ask that you not make assumptions about that, because you're wrong.
>And what does "leader" mean? Not that they are The Boss Of You and Do What I Say Dammit. No, they are the ones who step up to the plate and who coordinate.
Thank you. I am well aware of what a leader is. I also maintain that leadership demands earned respect. Once again -- I'm sorry if that offends you and upsets you so much.
>
omgawds how DARE you have the momumental ego to think you have a right to actually write a column on topics related to these ideas.... who the heck do you think you are???
I'm really not sure where this came from, since it reflects nothing I said. So -- I'm going to guess this must be aimed at someone else.
Deleted comment
Thank you...
April 24 2008, 00:20:26 UTC 13 years ago
In fact, much of what I write will generalize well to other situations where impromptu leadership is more common than structured leadership. I'm using Pagan examples because of the specific audience, but any community is likely to benefit from thinking about what leadership is and does. If people don't like the ideas I put forth, maybe I'll at least get them asking some useful questions.