Elizabeth Barrette (ysabetwordsmith) wrote,
Elizabeth Barrette
ysabetwordsmith

  • Mood:

How to Price a Human Being

e_moon60 explains in great personal and practical detail the harm done by denying health care to people just because they "aren't worth it."  Her essay illustrates the evil that people do to each other by placing a price tag on a person's value as a human being and to society.

Just in case anyone was unclear on my stance:

Having a penis does not make you better than someone with a vagina.
Being married does not make you better than a single person.
Having children does not make you better than childless or childfree people.
Being white does not make you better than anyone darker.
Having money does not make you better than someone without it.
None of these things make you more deserving of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness than any other human being.

And a society that subsists by ranking human beings in terms of their financial value is morally bankrupt, and had ought to be replaced by a culture that is actually worth living in.
Tags: economics, gender studies, politics, reading
Subscribe

  • Fieldhaven as Habitat

    If you follow my posts on gardening, birdfeeding, and photos, then you know that I garden for wildlife. Looking at the YardMap parameters, here…

  • A Little Slice of Terramagne: YardMap

    Sadly the main program is dormant, but the YardMap concept is awesome, and many of its informative articles remain. YardMap was a citizen science…

  • Winterfest in July Bingo Card 7-1-21

    Here is my card for the Winterfest in July Bingo fest. It runs from July 1-30. Celebrate all the holidays and traditions of winter! ( See all my…

  • Post a new comment

    Error

    default userpic

    Your IP address will be recorded 

    When you submit the form an invisible reCAPTCHA check will be performed.
    You must follow the Privacy Policy and Google Terms of use.
  • 38 comments
Title says it. If you've got a "how," I'm in.

best,

Joel
I have a serious question for you:

Assume that there is a life-threatening illness (that doesn't spread from person to person.) 2,000 people in an area have that illness.

However, there's only enough facilities in the area to help 1,000 of those people.

What would you do?
Yes, like I say below,
pragmatic considerations are perfectly valid,
but the reasoning which poses as pragmatism
is seldom anything other than prejudice.
That would depend on the situation, and on my role in it. The first thing I'd do would be rustle up more supplies, which is usually possible in real life, unless one is in a refugee camp or a battlefield. Failing that ...

If I were in charge on a large scale, and had access to the right information, I'd probably distribute supplies to the people with the best chance of survival, so as to save the most lives. Now for most illnesses, that means formerly healthy adults -- but there are some that kill prime adults while allowing children or elders to revive. That's a practical approach, maximum effect of limited resources; with a humane benefit, maximum number of lives saved.

If I were in charge on a small scale, or had no discerning information, I'd probably assign supplies on a first-come, first-served basis. Supplies last as long as they last, and when they run out, that's it. This is fair. It has the advantage of being less likely to cause arguments, though you'd better be prepared to bar the doors when supplies do run out. You'll save what lives you can before then.

A more compassionate approach would be to direct supplies toward the most vulnerable members first, usually children, elderly, and anyone else weakened. I'm less likely to go for that, because it really really tends to start fights, and fights tend to run down supplies. But there are times when it's the best call: if the illness kills the weak disproportionately, but the strong can fight through, then direct the supplies towards giving the weakest victims a boost. It'll save more lives that way.

There's often a balance between what is practical (what will maximize the number of lives saved) vs. what is considered moral (which varies by culture over time). Plus you have to factor in what is safe to do; i.e. if you stand by and let a bunch of children die, the chance rapidly increases that a parent will murder you or your staff. So if you want to survive, you have to factor in what people will put up with, or else be prepared to direct a mob towards whoever shorted your supplies, or kill them before they kill you. And the latter rather undermines your numbers in terms of keeping people alive, and your score on maintaining a sane society.

A lot depends on your goals, your materials, your data, and your personnel. Rules that fail to consider those factors are likely to give wrong directions at inopportune times.



That's a good answer,
but the question itself is irrelevant.
We have the capacity to provide adequate health care
for everyone in this country,
but the people making the decisions regarding health care
would rather put money somewhere else.

Re: Hmm...

ysabetwordsmith

10 years ago

Re: Hmm...

msstacy13

10 years ago

Re: Hmm...

ysabetwordsmith

10 years ago

Re: Hmm...

drewkitty

10 years ago

Re: Hmm...

msstacy13

10 years ago

I'll take a stab at it.

Putting this in terms of American population demographics, for a random 2000 persons:

http://www.censusscope.org/us/chart_age.html

About 430 persons are 0-14 years of age.
420 persons are 15 to 29.
310 are 30 to 39.
310 are 40 to 49.
300 are 50 to 64.
230 are 65 or older.

If I am to save the children (and I would hate to live in a society where we chose otherwise), I can only save 570 others. I can save those up to 29 years old, and some of those in their 30s, at the expense of losing everyone 40 years old and older.

However, if health care is distributed by income, it is the older who are more likely to be able to afford it. Even if health care is distributed by means other than wealth, political power is also concentrated in this group.

Add to this the unpleasant fact that health care in the last year of life is more than half of total health care costs over a lifetime.

I would be inclined to save all the children 18 and under, set up a lottery for those aged 18 to 39, and 40 and over make their peace. However, that is just me.

I would choose the same if I were over 40.
Emergency personnel check! Are there other elders in this population who can fill the elder role, if all of these die? Because if not, chances are there go all the people who have made peace with death and would be best able to help others cope with the massive amount of it that is about to arrive?

I know, America treats elders like kleenex, but that's because America is stupid this decade. We need elders. This is exactly the kind of situation we need them most.

Regardless of other aspects, if I were considering a category sort, I'd be reluctant to dispense entirely with any one category. I'm too aware of the importance of diversity. As soon as you throw something out, you're sure to need it.

You made good arguments for much of your distribution though.

Re: O_O

drewkitty

10 years ago

msstacy13

10 years ago

drewkitty

10 years ago

msstacy13

10 years ago

Yes...

ysabetwordsmith

10 years ago

This is what I always return to. It is fine to have high ideals, but they must be paid for. How does one propose to pay for them? The money, time and people to do it have to come from somewhere, and they are finite. They may be too finite to take care of the issue without something else exploding.

So when someone looks at me and says, "YOU DON'T CARE ABOUT SUFFERING PEOPLE," when I say, "How are you going to pay for this," I am unmoved, except maybe to exasperation. "IT'S NOT FAIR!" is the war cry of the adolescent, and conveniently ignores that no matter how fair or unfair something is, you have to be able to do something about it, and that doing something about it will incur a price.

Well...

ysabetwordsmith

10 years ago

Re: Well...

msstacy13

10 years ago

For me it is an on-going mental process of trying to not be angry that I am less "worthy" of living in this country (and society) because of the following:
1) age
2) weight
3) gender
4) lack of progeny
5) mental instability due to overlapping functionality of the previous criteria

When I do not push the anger away (which is often and fruitless) I find that the entire concept is crazy-making for me. I also find that the above realizations of self are making it more and more difficult to connect with what passes for normalcy in this society.
I tried to comment, but people being considered "not worth it" makes me too furious to comment. I've been there. It's not good. I hate for others to be there.
I waited until now because I was hoping for some miraculous revelation,
but I haven't had one.

As a Catholic, I'm supposed to tell you that respect for life
begins at conception yadayadayadablahblahblah,
but as an honest person,
I have to acknowledge that when it comes to healthcare,
the anti-abortion crowd is less likely to care
about all those people who have been born.
Is there a point to preventing abortion
if those same lives are later aborted through neglect and lack of concern?

Ooo...

ysabetwordsmith

10 years ago

Re: Ooo...

msstacy13

10 years ago

There are a number of pragmatic considerations
that figure into the distribution of limited resources;
however, prejudice figures into these decisions far more often than genuine pragmatism ever does.
While society as a whole has an obligation to eveluate the financial/productive value
of its members, such calculations are seldom sincere or the least bit honest.
As they say, figures will never lie, but liars will always figure.

Just an example from a Catholic perspective:
My brother was telling me recently that having three children
was financially much more of a burden than having two would have been.
I, of course, asked him if he'd ever thought about the fact that caring for him
in his old age would be less of a burden when shared among three children
than if it were divided between two.

He had no answer; it had never occurred to him to think of himself
as a potential burden, or of his children as assets.

The failure is not in ranking every member in terms of their financial value,
but in allowing the immediate financial cost to be the only critieria considered.

Really, it's very much like George Bailey explaining the Building and Loan,
except that it's not our money in our neighbors' houses;
it is an aggregate investment in a common future.
>>I, of course, asked him if he'd ever thought about the fact that caring for him
in his old age would be less of a burden when shared among three children
than if it were divided between two.<<

That is very insightful. People used to think about children as, basically, old-age insurance. That's much less common now. *ponder* But I'm not sure your argument, as sensible as it is, applies to the way families actually behave.

A majority of the time, most or all of the burden for care of elderly parents falls on one person: a daughter. I think that's wrong, but it's quite common. If siblings routinely pooled resources for this purpose, the results would be much better, because as you mentioned, the burden would spread out more.

Re: Thoughts

msstacy13

10 years ago

Re: Thoughts

ysabetwordsmith

10 years ago

Re: Thoughts

aldersprig

10 years ago

Re: Thoughts

ysabetwordsmith

10 years ago

Re: Thoughts

aldersprig

10 years ago

Re: Thoughts

cissa

10 years ago

Re: Thoughts

aldersprig

10 years ago

Re: Thoughts

msstacy13

10 years ago

Re: Thoughts

ysabetwordsmith

10 years ago

Yes. Or put more amusingly, there's more culture in my large intestine than there is in American society!
If there were actually limited resources- not just limited by the profits of insurance companies- I think people who are doing hands-on care for others should go first.

And i say that even though after raising my kid, I'm not planning on doing that myself.

  • Fieldhaven as Habitat

    If you follow my posts on gardening, birdfeeding, and photos, then you know that I garden for wildlife. Looking at the YardMap parameters, here…

  • A Little Slice of Terramagne: YardMap

    Sadly the main program is dormant, but the YardMap concept is awesome, and many of its informative articles remain. YardMap was a citizen science…

  • Winterfest in July Bingo Card 7-1-21

    Here is my card for the Winterfest in July Bingo fest. It runs from July 1-30. Celebrate all the holidays and traditions of winter! ( See all my…