Intent to Kill

>> Elizabeth, I am highly disappointed in you. I am Jewish and a Zionist and your comment is highly offensive to me. Israel has the right to exist and to defend itself. <<

You're entitled to your opinion, but I'm also entitled to mine. I believe that a country has the right to defend itself. I don't believe that it has the right to do so in ways that are overbearing and destructive to other nations. Whether it has the right to exist ... I think that wanting a homeland is a fine and reasonable goal, but based on observed actions, the Jews in Israel are making a painful mess of it. To me, that's disappointing. I'm not going to give them a free pass on obnoxious behavior just because they're Jews and have been victimized for centuries and finally have a place of their own. They're wrecking it -- and that's not a surprise, given that most of the Middle East is a wreck and they've been culturally traumatized for ages. But it is a problem, and now it's their problem.

>> FYI, Israel is a very civilized nation, a very developed nation to say the least and there is enough evidence out there to prove this. <<

Sorry, but what I have seen of Israel's behavior does not qualify it as civilized on my scale. Neither is the United States, in which I live, or some other countries whose behavior I've criticized before. Humanity is a rough race yet. You're entitled to use a different standard for civilization if you wish, but that doesn't allow you to take away my standard.

>> This comment is made out of ignorance and hatred. <<

That statement is factually inaccurate. I've studied history; I have an awareness of Jewish background and how Israel was formed and a fair number of things it's done since it was formed. Those things play into the current situation. I don't hate Jews; I find the culture interesting. I don't hate Israel, but I am increasingly frustrated by its behavior and the amount of trouble it is causing for itself and other people. It is entirely possible to disapprove on a logical and practical level.

>> I am sorry. Seriously. But I will unfriend you. There is nothing further I would like to read from someone with such views. <<

If you can't handle the differences of opinion, then yes, that's a good idea. Not all of my opinions are nice ones, because the world is full of troublesome people and problems, and I'm shy about calling them out.

That is certainly true, and has been true for some time now. Alas! It makes creating islands of sanity very difficult there, even allowing for culturally flexible definitions thereof.

>> I'm leaving out my views on Israel because I think that's all that's going to get commented on, <<

Yeah, people are going nuts over that. I've got a coffeehouse meeting this morning, so I'll have to pick up the rest of the comments later.

>> but I would like to weigh-in in that Germany has a very liberal and to me, civilized social system in very many ways when in comparison to ours.<<

You're actually one of the more consistent people pouring beans onto the "civilized" side of the scale for me.

>> I firmly believe its no longer accurate to look at it as "...even Germany". It suggests that Germany is behind other Western European nations (the Swiss minaret scandal, anyone?) or a bunch of racists. <<

I have studied history enough to be leery of Germany. It's had its liberal periods and then gone apeshit again, more than once, although to be fair that whole chunk of Europe has that problem. So the history has dug itself a pretty deep hole. The contemporary culture, especially the last ... hmm, ten or twenty years? ... has been making steady improvement. I was startled the first few times Germany did something that I found worthy of respect and admiration (outside of things it's been historically good at, like certain types of organizational and technical aptitude) but I've gotten to where I watch for those. Nobody should be weighed down by their history forever, it's just hard to overcome the inertia. (This applies to America, too, but I think Germany is working harder.) As for whether Germany is behind the rest of Europe, hmm ... I probably wouldn't place them at the bottom of that barrel.

So over time, my opinion is changing gradually in a respectwards direction. I still say "even Germany" but not as often as I used to. My view on the contemporary culture is, perhaps, in the neighborhood of guarded hope. I am just too much of a student of history ever to be quick in deciding that a country with a vile past has truly outgrown that. (This is why I didn't expect Obama's election to solve racism here; it was a great leap forward, but it was pretty obviously going to cause an ugly backlash.) On the other hoof, I also know enough about social evolution to understand that such growth is possible. Sometimes cultures learn amazing things. I'm watching to see what Germany is learning, and whether they'll figure it out well enough to make it work and like it (or be wary enough of their own history) to keep it permanently. That's probably not something that can be determined within the scope of a human lifetime, but ticking off the generations is a good start. (Remember that history goes back for centuries, counting for regional and cultural history in contexts where national borders are malleable.) If Germany keeps going in this direction for another 3-4 decades, and I'm still here to see that, I'll be in the "pretty sure" range. And that would be enormously cool.

>> But on the flip side, marriage and immigration equality, enforced and very thorough recycling programs, control of HFCS, health care for everyone, and free/mostly free university... well, I'm a fan.<<

Yes, those are all points that are very much in Germany's favor. In fact, they're points where Germany is ahead of America, though I think there are some other places that may have better programs in some of those areas.

>> It hadn't occurred to me before then that the security of Israel, or any other country, rests on truckloads of corpses. <<

Fascinating line!

>> "The barbarities of war are seldom committed by abnormal men.
The tragedy of war is that these horrors are committed by normal men in abnormal situations."<<

The subsequent horror -- the reason we MUST find a better conflict resolution method than war -- is that it breaks people. It doesn't just kill them. They come home with compound fractures of morality and personality, some of which never heal. Those problems then affect their families, and that ripples through the whole society. Look at what happens with American veterans: rampant problems of domestic abuse, substance abuse, self-harm and suicide, unemployment, homelessness, violent responses to trivial but misperceived stimuli, etc. Those are all ... hidden war injuries, in a way. The wreckage of normal lives that were invisible casualties on the battlefield.

So then, if a country is constantly at war, constantly under survival threat (real or perceived), then that kind of stress gets spread far and wide. That makes it difficult or impossible to make good decisions and rational actions. It creates a vicious cycle that is very, very hard to stop. But we have got to find a way of stopping it, not just for Israel, but for everyone.

>>Anyway, yes, I am rather offended by your remarks,
but ripping in to you isn't going to help anyone,
nor am I in any position to say that the Israeli actions were justified.<<

As long as it doesn't devolve into ranting, personal attacks, or pure vulgarity ... reasoned dispute is okay. Everybody doesn't have to use the same standards. Sometimes it's useful to compare them. Comparing perspectives is frequently useful too. Despite the rough spots, the overall discussion on the topic is turning up some interesting stuff -- including some things I hadn't known before, or had known but not combined in a particular way. Sometimes when people mull things over enough times, a solution emerges.