Elizabeth Barrette (ysabetwordsmith) wrote,
Elizabeth Barrette
ysabetwordsmith

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Intent to Kill

Laid out in considerable detail, this post explores what happened to the deceased Gaza activists.  This is an excellent example of a basic premise: if you want captives, send police; if you want corpses, send soldiers.  Their training is different, and you get what you pay for.

I do not consider Israel a civilized nation.  (I wish it would have been, but sheesh and baksheesh, Germany  is accruing beans faster on the civilized side of the scale.)  I sincerely wish that America would stop sending money there.  It is funding atrocities.  This costs America a lot of civilized beans.
Tags: news, politics
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  • 74 comments
>>All the more reason to refrain from extreme or absolute pronouncements.<<

More extreme than my stance: "America should cut off all aid to Israel." or "Israel hasn't done anything wrong; America should keep supporting the country permanently."

I've heard variations on both of those.

Abosolute: "Israel is a barbaric mistake that never should've existed and will never amount to any good."

I've heard versions of that too, mostly with a lot of 4-letter words added.

A position in the middle of a spectrum isn't always the right place, but it is right more often than a far end. The disadvantage of being in the middle is that no matter where you are in it, people from both sides will attack your stance.

>> Calling Israel uncivilized
and proposing withdrawal of US support for Israel
is really close to a ranting personal attack.
I understand that you didn't intend it so,
but--obviously--not everyone did. <<

A personal attack is one made without reference to valid reasons for one's stance or evidence against the opponent's stance. More subtly, it is usually made in a manner that denies the validity of another opinion.
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/personal-attack.html

I linked to a discussion of a current event in which Israeli action caused the preventable deaths of several human beings outside of Israeli territory. It detailed some rational points that strongly indicate the level of force was excessive and inappropriate. This is not an action I consider to be civilized. It is not an anomaly; Israel has done various other things I consider to be uncivilized. A combination of actions within a category causes that category to fit, until the pattern changes substantially. So, by my standards, Israel is an uncivilized nation. It is not the only nation I consider to be uncivilized. It's not uncivilized because it's Israel or because the population is mostly Jewish, but rather because of the collective choices and actions that people there are making and have been making for some years. And it's not that Israel never does anything right, but rather that it generates a steady stream of bad news. "Uncivilized" is a judgment, and it's not a nice one. However, it's descriptive in a performative way that has the potential to link back to actions or other evidence, in a way that, say, ethnic or religious namecalling would not be performative.

Then too, a rant is not susceptible to change. It tends to oversimplify. I'd like for Israel to mature into a terrific country; I just don't think it's there now. And the thread descending from the initial post has gotten every more complex as it moves along.

Proposing that America stop enabling Israel to procure weaponry is also different than proposing the removal of all support. America has a very bad habit of coddling allies and allowing them to get away with all manner of humans rights, environmental, and other violations without withdrawing support -- and then will turn around and carp at somebody else for doing the exact same thing or even less. Well, when you contribute support to someone else's actions, you share the moral consequences with them, whether positive or negative. Since I believe that Israel has used excessive force in the past, and is likely to do so again, I prefer that the country I'm living in refrain from enabling that. I sincerely doubt America will change its policy with Israel unless that policy becomes detrimental to something America wants; the appearance of morality is sometimes a concern, but the practical application of morality, not so much. This is one among many reasons why I don't consider America very civilized either.

I have very strong opinions about some things. Sometimes I express them in very direct terms. But they are almost always expressed in some conjunction with examples or other evidence of the reasoning behind those opinions. People may not find the evidence sufficient or convincing; that's up to them. It's there, though. They may not like my tone; that's their privilege. But it doesn't really meet the technical description of either rant or personal attack. Things like rude and harsh are a great deal more flexible, and may be freely applied as people see fit.
Thank you for clarifying.
And, yes, you could have been much more harsh than you were.
But I did say "really close"
>> But I did say "really close" <<

Okay, that's fair.

I try to be careful with such distinctions because so much of Webtext is rant and personal attacks, without bothering to give any reasoning or link to examples; and another big chunk is just practice using all the foul words the writer can think of. When I read, I read a lot of stuff that is controversial, and sometimes people get sharpish; but I won't echo rants unless it's for "this shows why ranting is a bad idea" or similar purposes. I also study how arguments work, what makes a rant, what makes a flame ... what are some alternatives. I'm not actually all that good with nonviolent communication; it's a conscious effort for me, and I don't always have the energy to take it very far. But I'm usually capable of keeping at least a layer or two of rational filter over what can be a boiling-hot reaction to some of the tomfool things that people do. If I don't have the energy for that, I tend to do something other than online posting. And those distinctions are important to me, because I'm also trying to teach people not to just rant or make snap judgments, but to look at the evidence. I'd been reading about the Israel incident for days, and didn't post about it until I spotted a discussion that had the kind of detail that let me discern important points.
It's too bad we can't let the Israelis take over for BP
and BP take over for the Israelis...
*sigh*
*choke*

The mind boggles!

Yet ironically ... it's often a lot easier to deal with someone else's problems than to deal with your own. Might could work.
An Israeli blockade of the oil spill would have to work better than anything BP has done so far,
and if BP were enforcing the blockade?
There'd be supplies covering the entire coastline.
:)
*LAAAAAAAUUUUUUUGH*

Point. Two points.