Intent to Kill

>> I'm leaving out my views on Israel because I think that's all that's going to get commented on, <<

Yeah, people are going nuts over that. I've got a coffeehouse meeting this morning, so I'll have to pick up the rest of the comments later.

>> but I would like to weigh-in in that Germany has a very liberal and to me, civilized social system in very many ways when in comparison to ours.<<

You're actually one of the more consistent people pouring beans onto the "civilized" side of the scale for me.

>> I firmly believe its no longer accurate to look at it as "...even Germany". It suggests that Germany is behind other Western European nations (the Swiss minaret scandal, anyone?) or a bunch of racists. <<

I have studied history enough to be leery of Germany. It's had its liberal periods and then gone apeshit again, more than once, although to be fair that whole chunk of Europe has that problem. So the history has dug itself a pretty deep hole. The contemporary culture, especially the last ... hmm, ten or twenty years? ... has been making steady improvement. I was startled the first few times Germany did something that I found worthy of respect and admiration (outside of things it's been historically good at, like certain types of organizational and technical aptitude) but I've gotten to where I watch for those. Nobody should be weighed down by their history forever, it's just hard to overcome the inertia. (This applies to America, too, but I think Germany is working harder.) As for whether Germany is behind the rest of Europe, hmm ... I probably wouldn't place them at the bottom of that barrel.

So over time, my opinion is changing gradually in a respectwards direction. I still say "even Germany" but not as often as I used to. My view on the contemporary culture is, perhaps, in the neighborhood of guarded hope. I am just too much of a student of history ever to be quick in deciding that a country with a vile past has truly outgrown that. (This is why I didn't expect Obama's election to solve racism here; it was a great leap forward, but it was pretty obviously going to cause an ugly backlash.) On the other hoof, I also know enough about social evolution to understand that such growth is possible. Sometimes cultures learn amazing things. I'm watching to see what Germany is learning, and whether they'll figure it out well enough to make it work and like it (or be wary enough of their own history) to keep it permanently. That's probably not something that can be determined within the scope of a human lifetime, but ticking off the generations is a good start. (Remember that history goes back for centuries, counting for regional and cultural history in contexts where national borders are malleable.) If Germany keeps going in this direction for another 3-4 decades, and I'm still here to see that, I'll be in the "pretty sure" range. And that would be enormously cool.

>> But on the flip side, marriage and immigration equality, enforced and very thorough recycling programs, control of HFCS, health care for everyone, and free/mostly free university... well, I'm a fan.<<

Yes, those are all points that are very much in Germany's favor. In fact, they're points where Germany is ahead of America, though I think there are some other places that may have better programs in some of those areas.